FFS (contains social issues)

"Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To" (murdersofa) 07/25/2016 at 15:00 • Filed to: black lives matter

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GMC for attention. Oppo is off-topic, and I’m curious, so I’m going to leave this here with a couple questions:

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From what I heard, there was supposed to be a Black Lives Matter protest in my town (Wichita, Kansas) that was going to shut down an off-ramp or something like that. Cops were gathering to prevent craziness from happening, shit was tense, then the leader of the local movement met with the police chief and somehow turned the thing into a cookout/block party where the chief opened up to the minority community and had a panel where he answered questions from the community.

To me this seems like exactly what needs to happen. The community coming together with the authorities to have a frank discussion and share some fun times. It seems the national media agrees because the story has hit the news, for once putting Wichita in the papers for something positive (remember BTK? Wichita).

And then I see this headline, and it makes me wonder a couple of things.

Why wouldn’t BLM want to be associated with this? It seems like a huge step in the right direction that other communities would greatly benefit from taking.

What on earth are the goals of this BLM DC twitter accountholder? They’re worse at handling PR with grace than Donald Trump.

Honestly I’m just kinda trying to find an ELI5 of this whole situation.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:05

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I agree that community events like this are crucial to building bridges and getting rid of this ridiculous racist bullshit. That said I can still understand why theyd continue to be angry, after all that has happened.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:07

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I often feel like Black Lives Matter the organization is a terrible representation of what Black Lives Matter the movement actually is.

For example, in Boston the local BLM chapter protested, blocked route 95 and everything. Afterwards the mayor of Boston offered to meet with them to discuss what’s wrong, and they declined. THEY DECLINED! You got a meeting with the mayor, what else do you think you could have accomplished with your protest? Having the personal attention of the mayor for an hour is literally the best thing that could have happened.

I think the way the people running it are running it turns off a lot of possible allies to the cause. I’m a big supporter of Black Lives Matter because I’ve got a black wife, a black son, and lots of black family (even though I myself am white)...I’ll support the idea with everything I’ve got, but the national people running it (and even the local chapters) often do things that make little or no sense.

HammerheadFistpunch > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:08

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I suppose you could argue (falsely, IMO) that maintaining a furor in national scene does more to “bring awareness” to the cause that does sitting down to attempt to solve issues at a local level does. I.e. putting out the flames of hate makes it hard to market the idea of putting out the flames of hate?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > HammerheadFistpunch 07/25/2016 at 15:09

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That makes sense, but also makes my head hurt.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 07/25/2016 at 15:10

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Right, that’s the part that confuses me. What on earth kind of agenda are the organizers running that runs so contrary to the obvious point of the movement? It’s nonsensical and slightly infuriating.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:10

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There are the BLM people who really want to solve problems.

Then there are the “BLM” people who don’t view cops as people. These guys just want blood as a way to vent their personal frustrations and have nothing better to do. I can understand how they would be against anything seen as conciliatory.

Any sane person would only want to associate with the former. The BLM “organisation,” sadly, does not represent the BLM movement.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:13

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BLM lost all their credibility when they blocked a Bernie Sanders speech.

Slant6 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:14

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I don’t think they’re really looking for cookouts. I think they’re looking more for the cops to stop murdering people and stop using excessive force.

Now that would be a step forward.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:15

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It’s often confusing. I think the best way I can say it is that the people at the top, and I can’t blame them for this, are tired of waiting for the change they’re looking for. They want it, as Warden Norton said, not tomorrow, not after breakfast, NOW. And frankly, they deserve to have it now. But they have to be smart enough to know nothing in the government has ever or will ever work that way, and that its okay to take small victories en route to larger ones.

Of course, I think that's something that's easier to say from the outside while white.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 07/25/2016 at 15:15

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If they meet with the mayor, then they don’t get to be violent (and possibly get away with being violent). The motives of these guys are clear.

jimz > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:17

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for some individuals, when it comes to protesting or activism, they don’t think past the “get attention/raise awareness” step.

jimz > HammerheadFistpunch 07/25/2016 at 15:18

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I think a lot of it is that it’s far easier to get people to agree that there is a problem than it is to get them to agree on how to solve it.

Frank Grimes > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:18

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We all just gotta get together and have potlucks carshows and stuff. Then we can agree on how awesome all different kinds of foods and cars are share our cultures.

It sickens me that people can feel they are oppressed because of the color of their skin. It sickens me also that we cant admit to our own racist or prejudice tendencies we all have without being villainized.

I think its so mind numbingly stupid that we agree its bad to judge people based on one aspect of them whether its the color of their skin or how much money they make or if they admit to being prejudice or just ignorant.

I wish there was some huge TV show that would have a whole sit down discussion about race. None of this the view bullcrap or anything but civil frank discussion about race. we need to feel more comfortable talking about crap without being labeled or shut up.

HammerheadFistpunch > jimz 07/25/2016 at 15:19

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Sure...but to actively discourage it?

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/25/2016 at 15:21

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That’s exactly it. A lot of the people in the Boston chapter are basically just professional protestors, they don’t want an end game, they want to protest. That hurts the people who are actually effected by the things BLM is supposed to be standing up against.

There's a really good cause in there, but if it could be handled worse, I'm not sure how.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > Frank Grimes 07/25/2016 at 15:26

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yamahog > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem 07/25/2016 at 15:26

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No, they did not. Bernie listened to their statements and improved his platform, and it saddens me that so many of his supporters can’t also listen.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:27

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One of the things I’ve found to be a head scratcher was that Dallas is where the biggest first shooting of officers happened. In a city that has more minorities in law enforcement than most and has great out reach programs.

And the chief of police is black!

I love this quote from him too. I also hear that applications to the police department are up well over over 300%. It’s impressive that he’s able to come to the podium after his people were shot and killed and invite people to apply instead of saying something like “this is war, we’ll be arming up”. To me it shows he genuinely cares about the city as well as his officers. He wants to make a difference.

Flyboy is FAA certified insane > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:31

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Man that whole situation was a big win to all parties involved, that Twitter person needs to get their head out of their ass.

Black lives matter keeps holding these protests, and winning meetings with big govt officials, but then they declined. I don’t know what they want to happen.

Frank Grimes > BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE 07/25/2016 at 15:34

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this is true.

mtdrift > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 07/25/2016 at 15:35

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Eh, a “meeting with the Mayor”? Meeting with the Mayor accomplishes what?

a) a photo opp with the Mayor

b) business as usual

Oooohhhhh! We get to meet with the Mayor! Must be important! Gimme a break.

BorkBorkBjork > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:43

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Tremendous amounts of money are to be made from prolonging problems, rather than fixing them.

mtdrift > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:44

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I think the problem with the whole “Wichita BBQ” situation is that it diverts the question.

“Hooray! We had a BBQ! BBQs are super fun!”

Injustice isn’t fun.

Can you offer any substantive policy, procedure, or legal questions that were resolved by these folks eating hamburgers together?

Nonviolent protests aren’t designed to make everyone feel good - they’re designed to inconvenience you, to draw attention to inequalities or injustices. They’re supposed to make you uncomfortable, to maybe experience a little bit of pain, so that you might consider the larger pains that are affecting those around you.

I think the reason the “BBQ” went viral was that it makes people feel good, and that’s the wrong reason.

mtdrift > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 07/25/2016 at 15:50

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Because “meetings” accomplish what?

The protest is the point.

BigBlock440 > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 15:53

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And what exactly did declining it accomplish?

Berang > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 15:59

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It’s because BLM has no real leader or organization. So one group calling themselves BLM, often is in conflict with another group calling themselves BLM. It allows BLM to simultaneously be in favor of, and opposed to anything.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/25/2016 at 15:59

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His handling of that situation was very impressive. He seems like a very solid dude.

Gamecat235 > BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE 07/25/2016 at 16:03

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The man is a rock, and is as close to what you would look for in a police chief as you could get... And his personal story? Holy fuck... http://fox8.com/2016/07/09/dal…

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE 07/25/2016 at 16:05

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Maybe he should be running for president!

mtdrift > BigBlock440 07/25/2016 at 16:09

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A meeting is not the point - the protest is the point.

The idea is to disrupt ordinary life to call attention to the problem and move the community to think differently about injustice.

A meeting invitation is a win for the politician on two fronts, and a classic tactic to undermine the underlying message without committing resources or sacrificing political capital. Either,

(A) the protesters go to the meeting, everyone shakes hands, and the politician looks awesome for listening to the aggrieved. The long-term result is usually stalling, burying, delaying, and ultimately doing nothing.

Or

(B) the protesters refuse to go to the meeting, and the politicians gets to say, “Hey, I did all I could to accommodate them, I offered to have a meeting. I’m sad they didn’t come talk to me :(“ Again, you get the same result. No substantive change occurs.

If anything, the protests themselves are too tepid. I mean, during the civil rights movement, protesters shut down entire public services for months on end. They didn’t go to “meetings” until those in power were ready to recognize injustice, or were swept aside.

Sam > Slant6 07/25/2016 at 16:12

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Yes, but every journey begins with a single step. And then continues for many steps more.

MLK and the rest of the Civil Rights Movement didn’t make one speech and have a couple rallies and everything was golden. He worked with the current leadership for years and kept pushing until change happened.

Sam > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/25/2016 at 16:13

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I really did like that quote. I do think that having officers of the same race in neighborhoods where they are the majority would be a really great idea. They would communicate with the people there better and know what the problems are from personal experience.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > Gamecat235 07/25/2016 at 16:20

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Incredible role model. Wow.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 16:21

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You protest to get attention, attention was given. You meet with the mayor to tell him things he could be doing better, so that he can be aware of them and change them. Also, it makes you look like adults...if you complain and complain and somebody says “okay, what should we do?” and you refuse to tell them, you wind up looking like an absolute idiot. When the protest happened people took it seriously, when they declined a meeting with the mayor it undid every single ounce of purpose they seemed to have.

You can't protest and then not explain to the most powerful man in the city exactly what you'd like him to do when he asks, that just undermines your whole protest.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/25/2016 at 16:22

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Ya know, I thought about that after listening to him speak. I'd say he demonstrated the temperament for a high-pressure job, but I think that ultimately he's right where he needs to be. Dallas needs a man like him running the police department.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 16:22

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The protest isn't the point though, change is the point. And the mayor is a pretty good place to start if you want change.

mtdrift > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 07/25/2016 at 16:32

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Maybe. Where you lose me is here:

“You can’t protest and then not explain to the most powerful man in the city exactly what you’d like him to do when he asks”

When does that happen?

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Sam 07/25/2016 at 16:46

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Yeah it’s an awesome quote.

I think it’s a great idea but at the same time there’s a bit of a down side to it. It’s a smaller down side imo but it’s still exists. And it’s that it’s not really fixing the problem it’s just kind of shell game sliding the white racist officers over to the white neighborhoods. It makes me a bit worried that a minority in the white neighborhoods would end up being hassled even more than they were . Sure I may be expecting a bad outcome from a possibly good and positive thing, but it feels like further segregating the communities to play match game with the officers and the citizens races.

At the end of the day I was saying this to my Sheriff’s Deputy sister about all this crap - “There’s asshole racists cops and there’s asshole BLM guys targeting cops. As you know because you’re not a racist asshole cop, those cops don’t speak for you and those asshole BLM shooters don’t represent everyone who believes black lives do in fact matter.”

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE 07/25/2016 at 16:48

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Oh I know, but man, think of the good he could do for the whole country.

Since we’re in a political post I feel like I can continue with politics.

I’m voting Gary Johnson because both Hillary and Trump are horrendous.

Sam > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/25/2016 at 16:54

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Yeah, it reawlly boils down to the basic - “Humans have a tendency to be terrible people”.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Sam 07/25/2016 at 16:56

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I was part of a volunteer bathroom crew at a campgrounds event of over 2500 people this past week/weekend.

people are definitely terrible.

This is confirmed.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 16:57

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“What on earth are the goals of this BLM DC twitter accountholder?”

They seem to have an US-VS-THEM attitude... even with groups/people who are on their side and could be very helpful to their cause.

In Toronto, they stopped the Pride parade and used that to blackmail the top Pride official into agreeing to a bunch of things... some of them very short-sighted and stupid... like not allowing the police to particpate in next year’s Pride parade.

For every thing BLM does that is right, they seem to do one or two things that are stupid and counterproductive.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Berang 07/25/2016 at 17:00

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So it suffers from “Anonymous” syndrome where dozens of 13 year olds on the internet are claiming to represent Anonymous with their Windows Movie Maker videos about haxing the gubmint?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 17:03

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If there was an inconvenient protest then some people would have been late to supper, an article would have been written in the local paper, and that would have been the end of it. Instead, the social issue at hand and the police chief’s willingness to listen to the community in a public forum made national news. As far as raising awareness goes it doesn’t get much better than that.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > yamahog 07/25/2016 at 17:06

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They should have been at a Trump rally instead. THAT’s the group that needs to hear the message.

But instead, they just alienate those who are already sympathic to their cause.

It’s a lazy/stupid form of protest.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 17:06

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What *can’t* a meeting accomplish? Discuss the use of chest cameras by police officers, discuss the use of tasers and what constitutes appropriate use of lethal force with the people that actually make decisions on the training of police. Get a dialogue going between the perceived oppressed and oppressors. Shit, a local Pokemon Go facebook group looped the local police department into their group chat so the cops aren’t getting sketched out by groups of kids hanging out in the dark playing Pokemon Go, and so that the players can report suspicious activity/vandalism that’s been taking place lately.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/25/2016 at 17:07

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Wow. That’s about the best response you can imagine from that situation. Bravo, David Brown.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 17:11

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Even if they meet with the Mayor and accomplish nothing, the activists get to say that they tried, and they’ll have another opportunity to protest at a later date when business remains as usual.

By refusing the offer, they just look like children.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 17:11

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Basically what I mean is that you protest with a goal, something like changing X. So if you go out and protest, I assume you have some idea of how to change X rather than just saying that it needs to be changed. That’s what your conversation with the mayor (or whoever, but in this case it was the mayor) is about...I’m sure he knows things need to change, but he’s going to ask you how you’d like to see it done.

I apologize if I misunderstood your question. It just seems to me a protest wanting change should talk to a guy who's going to have a hand in if something is going to change or not change, you know?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Slant6 07/25/2016 at 17:13

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yeah and America wanted to get to the moon but they had to build a rocket first. A dialog has now opened between the minorities of my town and the police department. Similarly, a local Pokemon Go facebook page looped the PD into their group chat so they could keep in contact about gatherings of players so the cops don’t think gang activity is going down when people gather at 3am in random places trying to catch another Bulbasaur. They also use the chat to report any vandalism or crime they see. Greater communication between authorities and civilians can only be a good thing.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/25/2016 at 17:14

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Someone in this thread said that some BLM “members” are just professional protesters with no endgame, and I feel like that can accurately describe some of the situations at hand.

Slant6 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 17:19

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Oh, for sure. No denying that.

Separate issue though.

mtdrift > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 17:31

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Maybe - still, I’m not seeing any kind of substantive outcomes. No political shift, no legislation introduced, no general outrage. Just, “hey, wasn’t that BBQ great!”

mtdrift > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 18:08

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That’s a functional outcome for sure, and I hope it has lasting consequences, but Pokemon Go is not a long-term solution to systemic racial injustice. Mostly because it’s a game, it’s not real, and it has no political consequences.

And, a meeting can be problematic - if the other side has no interest in meeting in good faith, but has all the power, than what’s the point?

mtdrift > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/25/2016 at 18:10

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Eh, I see it as sticking to their principles. Infantilizing a legitimate grievance, and the mobilizaiton of historical protest tactics (disrupting public services) is the problem.

mtdrift > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 07/25/2016 at 18:12

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“I’m sure he knows things need to change, but he’s going to ask you how you’d like to see it done.”

That’s great. It’s great to be asked. But does it actually result in any kind of change in policy?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/25/2016 at 18:24

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Dallas has been making huge strides and has been putting an emphasis on deescalation since 2009 and has seen a dramatic decrease in complaints about police conduct as a result.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > mtdrift 07/25/2016 at 19:12

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If you meet with the mayor, possibly. If you don’t tell him what you want, how can anything possibly be changed? I’m not saying the mayor is instantly going to do everything you say, but to not even give the man a chance to hear you and help you is shortsighted.

I’m actually reminded of a joke:

There’s a woman who, every night before she goes to bed, she prays to win the lottery. So she prays, the next day she checks the numbers, and she didn’t win. Next week, same thing...she prays, she checks the numbers, she doesn’t win.

This goes on and on for some time, and one night she’s praying and she’s mad. She says “God, this isn’t fair. I pray to you every night, I go to church every Sunday, and you’re just not helping me here and I’m sick of it!”

There’s a blinding flash of light, she opens her eyes, and there’s God himself standing right in front of her. He looks down at her and he says “Lady, meet me half way here...buy a damn lottery ticket.”

You can't be mad that nothing is happening when you're part of the reason nothing is happening.

yamahog > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 07/26/2016 at 00:30

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No, they went to someone who would actually bother to incorporate their points into their platform instead of just inciting violence against those who disagree with him. Absolutely not a lazy or stupid form of protest. Anyone who was alienated by that stands to learn something from Bernie’s response.

pImpOfThePerverse > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/26/2016 at 03:39

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So BLM is an anomic interest aggregation, rather than an issue aggregator. there are not a central committee or formal issue agenda or event sponsorships. Actions can be said to have taken place under the auspices of their organization (verb) network but not their organization(noun) because there isn’t one. When BLM organizers do media they stipulate that they don’t speak for BLM because nobody does. BLM doesn’t speak, per se. Rather, it’s a rubric for spontaneous nonviolent action and advocacy confined to a very specific area of interest. It’s an odd duck among political actors to be sure. Anyhow, the authority of any BLM organizer to endorse this community forum is shaky at best. That doesn’t mean they’re against it. While wary of being coopted I’m sure they support the event, just not formally. It falls outside their remit.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 07/26/2016 at 11:38

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And in the situation? I don’t think I would have been able to keep myself as calm as this guy.